Amplifying Thriving in a Global Community

The critical challenges we face today cross multiple disciples and borders. In this age of interconnectedness, how can positive change be amplified? How can technology be harnessed to both support and propel this change? In this conversation, we spotlight applications that emulate nature rather than oppose it, from Colorado-based Biomimic and startup Founder, Lily Urmann; we explore the benefits of scale in deploying solutions that address complex challenges, from India-based Tata Consultancy Services Design Thinker and Manager, Jayashree Nagarajan. We consider synergies that invite innovation to amplify environmental, social, and economic thriving across borders.

The Interview

Giselle Carr 0:04

Hi, good morning, everyone. Thank you again for joining us for our second episode of *details presented to you by Stardust Life-Centered Design. My name is Giselle Carr, and the Founder and CEO of Stardust, and I'm excited to bring to you two speakers today to speak to us a little bit about technology, and about how they have been applying technology to life-centered design.

So specifically, the topic that we'll be approaching today is Amplifying Thriving in a Global Community, and this is to face the massive critical challenges that we face today - including climate change - that are spread across multiple disciplines and borders. So when we consider the threat of climate change, it’s biochemical and environmental, in and of itself, but it requires solutions that involve communications, political changes, and technological systems. So really, in this age of interconnectedness, is there a way to amplify positive change? That's what we'll be talking to our guests today about.

So across these numerous boundaries, how the technology behind us both support and propel positive change; what are the pathways to development of a future that is thriving for all of life, not just human beings, but also our ecosystems, nature, our economies. In this conversation, we'll spotlight applications that emulate nature rather than oppose it. And also explore the benefits of scale in deploying solutions that address these complex challenges.

Welcome, welcome to my two guests, Jayashree Nagarajan and Lily Urmann. Absolutely thrilled to have you guys here. Thank you. Just as a side note to everyone in the audience, none of us have met in person in real life; we've only met online, kind of a funny story. I've met both of them on social media. Somehow managed to meet Lily a few years ago in a shared biomimicry group, and I met Jayashree earlier this year, because she reached out to me on LinkedIn. And I'm just thrilled to have met both of them because there's so inspiring and we can't wait to share more about their work. So I would love to invite you guys to introduce yourselves, I guess we could start with Jayashree.

Jayashree Nagarajan 2:43

Thank you to yourself for organizing this. Very excited to be a part of this interesting initiative. To just say a few words about what I'm doing, and the organization I'm a part of, I work with Tata Consultancy Services, we are an organization of half a million employees. And if I would quote it in my CEOs words, “Every transformation and every innovation starts with a belief that we can make the world a better place”. So that is what is the premise based on which we try to bring in the culture of innovation, bringing the culture of purpose-led transformation across the organization. I’ve been in this field for 12 years now, having worked across multiple IT companies, so that is in short about me.

Giselle Carr 3:39

Thank you for being here Jayashree. And Lily, can you share a bit about what you do?

Lily Urmann 3:46

I'm at the other end of the spectrum. I'm pretty new to the field and have a company of two people that just launched last year. I also was just thinking about this during the introductions as well. Today's focus is all about technology. And I think it’s fitting that we all met on technology and that we're pursuing this and pushing and having these conversations on this platform and in this space that is online. So there's something to be said about that for sure. I'm a recent graduate of the Biomimicry Master's program at ASU (Arizona State University). Well, I guess not super recent anymore, it was last May. And I also worked at the Biomimicry Center on the ASU campus up until about a month ago where I transitioned out. And now I'm working full time to launch my own company, Brilliant By Nature and NeighborNET, which is what I'll be talking about today.

Giselle Carr 4:38

Super exciting! Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, it's absolutely true, right? Like technology has facilitated this amazing connection - in what world would you guys have met? You know, I feel very honoured to be able to have both of you here because at the different ends of the spectrum there's something almost magical that happens. I'm sure there was a time when Tata was also one or two employees. We live in an age of exponentials. So you really just never know what could happen with these innovations.

Jayashree Nagarajan 5:16

I do believe that technology helps us break barriers. And this is a fantastic example of that happening here.

Giselle Carr 5:24

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Awesome. Okay, so maybe you guys could share a little more about what made you decide to work in this industry? And what was the genesis? What was the why that was driving you? I guess we could start with Lily this time.

Lily Urmann 5:43

Sure. So I guess I'll have to back up a little bit to the start of the the company that I'd recently launched, or co-founded. My last semester of the master's program, I was really inspired by forest networks. And this actually goes back a few years; I had this idea, and Giselle and I talked many years ago, before it was fully developed and before it even evolved into what it is now.

But back then I was able to focus on the research and development in the last semester of my master's program, because I chose to understand how forest networks build resilience in ecosystems after flooding and fires, and how species survive and come back and thrive in these ecosystems even after such destruction.

And that was really motivating to me, especially as I was experiencing and seeing firsthand how my own communities and people I knew were affected by this increase in disasters around the globe from climate chaos. I was motivated, and I asked these questions - how does nature facilitate resilience? How does nature build resilience? How does nature share resources? Because those were the gaps that I was starting to see and notice. And that's what inspired me to launch this company.

And when my advisor, Aaron Butler, and I decided to take it to market, we founded this company, called NeighborNET. It's an app and platform website, eventually, that will help facilitate greater connection and communication for communities that are facing disasters. Specifically, just amplifying the power that's already in communities with this technological tool. It's not developed yet, we're still in the early phases of talking to people, and interviewing folks and prototyping, which is really exciting. But it's also terrifying, right? I'm not in the technological space. I have an undergraduate degree in environmental studies and Masters in biomimicry. I think my passion around community organizing helps push me into the mental space of, “Look, there's a need for something right now I have some skills that can help get there; I can bring together other people that have the rest of the skills that do all this, and I can help facilitate and create something impactful”.

And I think that's what keeps me motivated and keeps me moving. Having this needed, and the fact that I have some skills that can help create it. So that's kind of what helped to get me into this tech space. And it is all very new, for sure, and I’m so happy to be here. But also, there's so much work to be done. And I think that that's the thing to have, even when people don't think they belong in the tech space or me like in the entrepreneurial space. I have to remind myself that actually, yes, I am an entrepreneur. I'm in the tech space. Now I'm gonna make this happen. And I have skills that will help me get there and so I belong here.

Giselle Carr 8:39

Absolutely, yeah. And when you think about the scale of what we're trying to solve, right, the things that we face together, that's the beauty of technology. It's an amplifier and also an accelerator. It's helping us go from A to B, from one change to another. The beauty of it is how quickly it can happen. And I think it's very much necessary. I think it's very much necessary for people who might be in what they think are the areas external of that industry, to be in it because I just can't see a way around solving these issues. That is the old way, let’s put that way.

Over to Jayashree, maybe you could speak to us a little bit about the work you’re currently doing.

Jayashree Nagarajan 9:25

Yes of course, so I started my career in technology. I've been in technology for a long time. And there was a reason why I got into this - if you look at the last decade or two, you can see that technology has been impacting human lives exponentially.

So with every five years, every three years, you can see that it's not just about the adoption of technology, but the impact technology has. So traditionally, in most of the IT organizations, there was a belief that automation or reducing efforts was always the key. So I wanted to be in a place where I could try for positive change where through technology, you could enable a change in the way people look at using technology where it can impact larger amounts of lives.

Because if you look at it, in the past, if we look at the traditional systems, we could have probably spoken to people around us and met people in our cities. But now with technology, whether it's resources, whether it's knowledge, whether it’s information, as well as various learnings, they can be spread so easily. So that is primarily the reason I wanted to be in the field and try to nudge that change in whatever little way I can drive it towards positivity.

Giselle Carr 10:50

I definitely agree that, when you think of the role of it in the past versus now, I mean, it must have been so interesting the past 10 years. Oh my God.

Jayashree Nagarajan 11:03

It's been a journey. So it's like seeing a child grow, right? You can see it being a very small influencer to it being something that globally impacts everything and anything. So it's been a pleasure to be a part of this. This field of work, and every day is a learning. Every day is something new that I learned. Very excited to be a part of this.

Giselle Carr 11:31

Yeah, I mean, having worked in design, management and strategic design, I would say about 10 years, it's interesting, the way that collectively we've come to this place in the world where we've had to almost reimagine everything that we do. And you really can't do that slowly, when you know that there's this deadline around climate change and the same concerns. So it's really fascinating to see how those things interact and see what comes out of it. So yeah, I definitely want to just dig a little deeper into some of these solutions that we mentioned before. So Lily, maybe you could speak a little bit about what made you decide to create this technology based platform, maybe talk a little bit about what you feel are some of the benefits of this startup that you've seen so far.

Lily Urmann 12:27

Yeah, and actually, with what you were just talking about, it reminded me that I think there's also a really important and exciting area in the future of the intersection of technology and biomimicry. So my background and passion is in biomimicry, and to be done really well and really deeply, biomimicry takes a lot of time and a lot of understanding of the natural world, bringing biologists to the design table.

Just as it takes effort, it takes a lot of time. It takes cooperation and collaboration. And I think there's a huge opportunity because it's not embedded deeply in technology on a wide scale yet. And we're not there yet with NeighborNET, but it's something that motivated me as well, when I was excited about understanding how forests function, and then translating that to a technology that could help communities function in the face of a disaster.

A lot of what motivated me to speak on your question a little bit, is seeing firsthand and talking firsthand to the people that we've been talking with over the last year when we were interviewing folks from around the world who personally experienced disasters and failures in their community when something happens, like on the East Coast when Hurricane Sandy hit. There was a snowstorm right before that, and one of our folks was talking about how the power was out, and that nobody really had that network of understanding who had what, and how to share their generators, and also clarify who had potable water.

There's just some baseline communication problems that happen in a disaster. And I feel like that's this point of opportunity in the biomimetic space, because forests have been doing this for millions of years. How do we translate that into a technology? So right now we're calling it a bio-inspired idea, because it's inspired by what happens in the forest. But ultimately, we want it to be biomimetic, deeply biomimetic in the way that even the code in the back end would be inspired by the functionality and the design principles of the forest. There's a lot of opportunity there, and that's also what I'm really excited about, because like you both said, technology is in our future, regardless of how we apply it, we might as well make sure that it's impactful and meaningful and and done well.

So that's kind of the space I'm in right now; considering the interviews that we've had so far with people from all over the world that have experienced disasters, and then in those communities that took weeks for government to come and provide aid. For example, I was on Twitter yesterday and saw that in Louisiana, there's military trucks that are blocking access to stores, and people are getting turned away from going to the store to get their supplies that they need from the military. So there's a downfall to our systems right now that are in place for disaster response. And I think they're overall getting better as we experience more disasters, but not quickly enough. And I think that there is a really important place for something like a technological tool, both software and eventually hardware that can help people respond quickly and more efficiently after a disaster, just like our ecosystems around the world respond after disasters.

Giselle Carr 15:51

Wow, it's phenomenal. I really didn't know that there were all these issues; there were communication issues that could actually, you know, deter people from getting the assistance that they need. Like that's, that's just mind blowing.

Lily Urmann 16:05

I mean, like you were saying, we've been part of technology and technology is such an ingrained part of our lives at this point. But there are also access barriers to technology, especially with older folks. And so that's something we're also thinking about, as in how do people access the support that they need, when they’re applying for money after a disaster, and need money to rebuild? That whole application on the government site is so complicated and hard to navigate. It's hard to get the support and help that you need in such an important time, when you need it quickly. And you don't want to jump through 20 hoops to get the help that you need. So how do we make it accessible? How do we make it easy to access? And how do we make it already ingrained?

In nature there's a fungal network that's already there. And there's communication already happening before a disaster hits. And that's a big piece of what we're trying to translate of, how do we get people engaged in this app, at least on the back end, before something happens? So that the network of help is already there, so that they're immediately connected to what they need, and what's around them when the time comes.

Giselle Carr 17:12

Absolutely. I'm just thinking of, funnily enough, in the other conversation that we have had so far with *details episode one. There's a conversation around disaster resilience as well, but more from an architectural and urban planning standpoint. And some of the stories that emerged from that are things like people waiting 10 years to receive money after disasters. There really is something to be said for the complexity of applying for help and what is actually going to streamline those processes and make it easier, because the other side of it is people being full of anxiety or confusion while it's happening.

So it's very much that you're sitting in having all the structures in place, and wanting things to move smoothly when it happens. Because, I mean, if there's anything that we can predict, we can't predict where it will hit, but we know that things will happen. Disasters are constantly happening.

Lily Urmann 18:15

Yeah and I'm not saying that this technology will necessarily solve all of our problems. But I guess what I'm saying is that there's so many short fallings and there's so many downfalls of the way that we do respond to disasters currently, that there's a lot of space to improve. This can offer, at least if it connects people to other people in their area who are better at navigating those systems or younger that know how to access the technology. That's kind of the space we're trying to fill. There's a lot that needs to happen. Here's one thing we can do to at least kind of build in that baseline connection network. That is what is so needed.

Giselle Carr 18:59

Definitely, I see what you mean about not being able to solve everything, but you can still solve something. And I mean, I am ambitious. That'd be a lot to do. But I read once a quote that never left me, which is the idea that it's “a crisis of opportunity”, is what our time is. I try to refer to that, you know, because it really is just at every point.

So Jayashree, I'm curious if maybe you could share a little bit about your experience at scale. So we just pivot over to understanding a little bit more about your market and TCS in India - just because you obviously have access to a whole different level of scale, and you see things that we can't really imagine.

Jayashree Nagarajan 19:49

Yes, I was actually relating to what Lily was just saying, right? So when we talk about disasters, there is a lot of scope of change to happen. And even when there isn't a disaster, even when we are at normal, there is also a lot of things that need change. So one of the things that we have been doing in our organization now; if you actually look at the technology field, right, being a technology company, if you don't have a physical product, there might be platforms, but it will always be digital projects.

So for people to understand the impact that the digital products are having on the ecosystem on the world at large, it's not very easy for people to understand that. So more than probably the challenges around getting the buy in or, you know, getting people on board, it's about the mindset changes. It's about whether we are able to make people understand beyond templates and processes and help them understand and be sensitive towards the the impact that they can make, through every single solution that they are bringing in place.

So what we have been trying to do is, we have been trying to incorporate these practices of thoughtful innovations in every product lifecycle. I would say in my own department, that they would be hundreds of applications that we ourselves are managing. So the idea is every product team understands and is able to live these values on a day to day.

We are still not there. It's still a long way. But through capability building to you know, incentivizing people across various gamification modes, we are trying to bring in this change in mindset and culture. Apart from this, of course, we drive a lot of transformation projects. We drive a lot of not just internal, but even external facing projects where we try to influence change at the ground level. I think it still pivots back when we talk about scaling, to bringing people to believe and understand and be sensitive towards the change that they can be a part of.

Giselle Carr 22:20

Absolutely. I really hear you with that. And I think one of the things we've talked about in the past Jayashree is the fact that TCS, so many of its client base is B2B. So it's other businesses. And so they become hubs in a way of different kinds of positive change in their areas. It's phenomenal if you even think about how you could deploy positive change within a network that size. It's a dream scenario, in a way, because you can have this particular purpose that moves through all these different networks. When I think about, I just get super fascinated and inspired, because I also think about all the companies being like an extension of TCS. Like all of these organizations, and it's pretty much every market, right? Your clients are all over the world.

Jayashree Nagarajan 23:09

Yes, and there is a partnership that happens. And I do see that compared to five years back, when we talk about TCS clients, whether they are domestic or international, they themselves are aware now of the fact that they have to be responsible. They have to think of a responsible solution and not just a cost effective solution. So that change has been very positive and very motivating. So while yes, there is a cascading impact, and as exciting as it is, it's also responsibility - a responsibility to ensure that we are able to shape that change in a positive way. And we don't add to the burdens that world already has.

Giselle Carr 23:59

Definitely. I hear that. I mean, it really is mind boggling to think about scale in that way. But I mean, I feel like the sweet spot is someday, there'll be bio-inspired and biometric innovations deployed at scale, and like that, to me, that's the axis point of this conversation.

Jayashree Nagarajan 24:24

Yes it has already started in a lot of bits and pieces across the organization. What we are looking forward to also, in future we will hopefully collaborate more on this is to see how we can make that a common aspect that every product thinks of, you know, on how they can learn from nature, how they can benefit nature, and co-exist rather than trying to disrupt it all the way.

Giselle Carr 24:53

Exactly. So important.

Lily Urmann 24:56

I mean, more than making something truly biomimetic, which can be really hard and really difficult to scale, is what we're finding in the biomimetic space right now - is just understanding what it means to be “life friendly”. What does it mean to, like you said, learn from life but also benefit life? If we're understanding and trying to translate these tools in the natural world, how can we make sure that the natural world is thriving in addition to us? I think that's an underlying current that I'm seeing in a lot of biomimetic spaces, that is scalable, more so than like throwing in the term biomimicry and going through the whole process.

Hopefully it’s more accessible down the line, but it's difficult to do right now with less biomimics in the space, especially in technology, especially less people having those like deeper conversations of, “How do we make this truly biomimetic?”. Because there's also a lot of surface level biomimicry stuff that's out there in media and people are excited by it, but it's not truly biomimicry.

Giselle Carr 26:16

Yeah, I totally hear you because I know it's an emerging discipline, in many ways, and is still perceived as niche even though nature is literally all around us.

Jayashree Nagarajan 26:32

Yeah, it’s ironic in a way that nature is all around us - but we still have to be reminded to look at it, to learn from it.

Lily Urmann 26:56

Yes, and particularly applying it to the built world too - that's something that really inspires me. Because, half the time, I need to put all my technology away and go into nature and be with nature in order to build that wellness and build inner calmness and get that biophilia aspect of it.

On the other hand, technology is so interwoven into our lives, and we're not getting away from it anytime soon. How do we build from this inclusive, meaningful, impactful space that is inspired by nature and benefits nature, with the tools that we already use? And I think that's a really exciting area, too, that I could talk about forever.

Giselle Carr 27:36

We always have to remind ourselves that we are nature, we're all part of it. I have some pretty heavy boundaries around that, too. I'm always like, okay, switch the phone off. Put it in a drawer in another room - I am that person for sure. You know, when it dawned on me, it was something I read about - it was about the prevalence of design, actually. But if you try to think of anywhere that you've been, where you don't see signage, the signage is an indication of design’s constance. So man has touched, pretty much everything. And it's just understanding how we can have a healthier relationship.

Lily Urmann 28:26

And moving forward, it's more relevant - how do we make sure that it's healthy, really? For us and the planet?

Giselle Carr 28:37

Exactly. Okay, so we're coming down to our last few minutes. So I just want to switch gears a bit and ask you guys about any suggestions you have, any ways in particular that you've overcome challenges, and advice that you might give to someone who might be coming up in this field? Or who might be you know, inspired to do something like this, but not sure where to start? So maybe speak to how you've overcome some challenges and developing solutions? So I'll give it over to Jayashree?

Jayashree Nagarajan 29:10

This is probably one of my favourite parts, because I also collaborate a lot with academia and it's always interesting to demystify the complex terminologies. Demystify what people think is a nice thing.

What I would say is to simplify things in life. We always believe that if it is technology, or even people who are in technology believe that, you know, biology is very complex. So we always think things outside our boundaries are complex to understand. If it's broken down to simpler terms, simpler outcomes that all of us strive to achieve, there is a better cohesiveness in how people collaborate together, so that, for example, instead of saying that I want to build something, using Internet of Things, and another person sees that they want to really understand the neural networks of how things are happening, if it is simply said that we want to effect positive change, things become easy, and they know that they are working towards the same objective.

So I have always believed, and I would recommend, that whether we look at our own lives, or the problems we are trying to solve, or even the change we are trying to make - if we can just simplify things, or at least communicate it in a simple way, a lot of challenges are overcome by that.

Lily Urmann 30:41

I love that it's so true. And I would definitely say the same thing, especially with biology and biomimicry, global challenges climate chaos, disaster response - how can we simplify it? How can we make sure everyone at least knows that they can contribute and understands how they can contribute?

Because that's the only thing that's going to create change: not one person doing it 100%, right, but millions of people doing it incorrectly, as much as they can do, even if that's, you know, less for some people. I would definitely say the challenges that I've faced are definitely entering a space that I'm unfamiliar with. And I think my advice for people that are doing that, especially if they're interested in biomimicry or technology is to have conversations with people.

There's so many knowledgeable people out there, like Giselle and Jayashree, and so many other people that I've talked to over the past year, while I'm learning how to start a company and what direction we want to go. Having conversations and reaching out to your network and talking to people, and also doing the scary things sometimes - like starting a company is terrifying for me. But I also know that I need to do it. And it's going to create change, and I'm doing what I can in the space that I love.

So that's also a big piece of advice - just finding the space that you're excited about and you're motivated in and things that you're good at and how you can contribute as much as you can.

Giselle Carr 32:07

Fantastic. And you know what I like about these two pieces of advice? They're very actionable. I think a person who might be running a business and thinking about a million things is probably just like, right now, when they when you said to simplify and to do what you love, like “aaaaahhhhh” (sighs), very actionable.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, ladies, this has been an enlightening conversation; refreshing and energetic, but also just very accessible. I actually feel in a sense that it feels simplified. To me, it feels more normal. I feel easier about approaching technology in this way and thinking of it this way. It doesn't seem so insurmountable.

When we actually just get together and share ideas, we’re surprised at the things that emerge. So that's why I feel so inspired, so thank you so much for your time today.

Jayashree Nagarajan 33:01

It's a very enriching discussion. Thank you so much for hosting it.

Lily Urmann 33:05

Thank you so much for everything Giselle and Jayashree.

Giselle Carr 33:07

Most welcome. It's really a privilege to host you guys. Thank you.